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Heart Health & The Shocking Truth About Seed Oils | Tucker Goodrich (Encore)
The conversation around fats and heart health has been distorted for decades. In this episode, we uncover the surprising truths about saturated fats, seed oils, and their actual impact on heart disease, metabolism, and longevity. Learn why mainstream nutrition advice might be holding you back and how you can fuel your body for long-term vitality.
🔹 The hidden history of seed oils and heart disease
🔹 Why cholesterol numbers don’t tell the whole story
🔹 How fats influence your metabolism and energy levels
🔹 Practical tips to choose healthier fats for your diet
🔹 The surprising link between fats, inflammation, and longevity
🔑 KEY TOPICS 🔑
The historical misconceptions about saturated fat and heart disease
How seed oils became mainstream despite controversial evidence
The metabolic differences between various types of fats
Practical strategies to reduce harmful oils in your diet
The importance of fats in supporting hormone health
🕐 TIMESTAMPS 🕐
[00:00] Introduction: The controversy surrounding dietary fats
[07:20] The hidden history of seed oils and public health
[15:45] How fats impact metabolism, energy, and weight
[24:30] Decoding cholesterol numbers and what really matters
[34:10] Practical tips for choosing healthier fats
[45:00] The role of fats in inflammation and longevity
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Transcript
If you replace saturated fat with seed oils, your rate of heart disease goes up, your blood cholesterol goes down.
Speaker A:That's correct.
Speaker A:But your disease, your death rate, what we care about, goes up.
Speaker A:And they basically swept that evidence under the rug and have been doing so ever since.
Speaker A:And you know, it's ironic because the biggest trial that was ever done to test this hypothesis was done by the America was started by guys associated with the American Heart association and had government support.
Speaker B:Welcome to the Optimized Woman, the podcast for high performing women ready to take back their health.
Speaker B:I'm Orshi McNaughton, a board certified holistic health practitioner and functional nutritionist.
Speaker B:If you're tired of feeling stuck, you can't lose the weight.
Speaker B:No matter what you do, your energy is in the toilet, your metabolism feels like it's at a standstill, and you lost the spark you once had.
Speaker B:Then you're in the right place.
Speaker B:We are here to unleash the unstoppable force you meant to be and give you the tools to fix what's holding you back.
Speaker B:So if you're ready to own it, start thriving again and live the life you deserve.
Speaker B:And let's get to it.
Speaker B:Hey.
Speaker B:Welcome, friends.
Speaker B:Today we are exposing one of the biggest nutritional threats hiding in plain sight.
Speaker B:Seed oils.
Speaker B:These highly processed oils are everywhere in nearly every packaged food and restaurant meal, and they are wrecking havoc on your health.
Speaker B:From chronic inflammation to metabolic dysfunction, heart disease, autoimmune conditions, and even cancer, the damage you are causing is staggering.
Speaker B:I'm joined by Tucker Goodridge, a researcher and one of the leading voices in the fight against seed oils.
Speaker B:We are breaking down exactly how these toxic oils disrupt your metabolism, the role of linoleic acid and omega 6 fats in driving chronic disease, and most importantly, why cutting them out can be a game changer for your health.
Speaker B:If you're dealing with unstable blood sugar, stubborn weight gain or inflammation, this one simple change could radically improve your well being.
Speaker B:So let's dive right in.
Speaker A:I knew that a dietary modification could have a major impact on your health, right?
Speaker A:That had a huge impact.
Speaker A:But it wasn't until I got into my.
Speaker A:I started getting a little older and I started having all of these health problems.
Speaker A:I was hospitalized a number of times for various different, seemingly unrelated things.
Speaker A:And physicians I saw were, I mean, you know, they'd tell me stuff, but none of it altered the path of my health.
Speaker A:And that was finally wound up with me being hospitalized for four days in a stroke ward when I was 38 years old.
Speaker A:When I Showed up at work and discovered that I had lost part of my vision and was unable to speak and had to sign out of a conference call because I just literally couldn't answer the questions that people were asking me.
Speaker A:I basically had to just hang up and walk to my boss, and I managed to tell him, I can't talk.
Speaker A:And one of our colleagues had been a paramedic and recognized it for stroke and threw me in the back of his car and took me to the local hospital with a stroke ward.
Speaker A:And there I was for the next four days at 38 years old.
Speaker A:And they thought it was neat because as they told me, we never see anybody your age in here.
Speaker A:And I was like, that's not good.
Speaker A:So a couple four years, four years later, and a bunch more visits to the hospital, I came across a podcast that explained to me why my dental problems were likely the result of diet and, you know, beyond just sugar causing cavities, but why I needed braces and why my.
Speaker A:Why I and my mother and my grandmother all had bad teeth.
Speaker A:And, you know, that really blew my mind because I never thought that diet could have an impact like that.
Speaker A:I was the third generation.
Speaker A:I figured it was genetic.
Speaker A:So, you know, I started doing a lot of research into this.
Speaker A:And the first change that I made, which is something nobody else did at the time, was taking seed oils out of my diet, and everything else got better.
Speaker B:How did you know to do that?
Speaker B:I'm just curious because.
Speaker B:And what.
Speaker B:How long ago was that?
Speaker B:Maybe like 10, 15 years ago or.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was about 15 years ago.
Speaker A:2010.
Speaker A: Early: Speaker B:Because back then, no one really spoke about this.
Speaker A:Yes, one guy did.
Speaker A:So there was a blogger by the name of Stephan Guine who had.
Speaker A:I had started following because he was into barefoot shoes at the time.
Speaker A:That was when that was a really big thing.
Speaker A:And I was into that also.
Speaker A:And honestly, I thought he was a kook.
Speaker A:And then I started following his blog after that, posts on dental health and malocclusion and how it could be driven by 100% by diet, not genetics.
Speaker A:And that seed oils at the time was one of his things.
Speaker A:And one day he'd done a post about skin cancer and dietary fats.
Speaker A:And, you know, I thought about that, and obviously I was at the time super susceptible to sunburn.
Speaker A:And literally one day, on a whim, I got down to the end of the salad bar at work and looked at all these squeeze bottles of salad dressings, and I thought to myself, that's gotta be the worst drink, worst fats.
Speaker A:Known to man to make it into this place.
Speaker A:So right there, I stopped eating them.
Speaker A:And at that point, I'd had 16 years of irritable bowel disease, and that went away in two days.
Speaker A:My carbohydrate cravings went away.
Speaker A:I was a little bit overweight, you know, not much, 20, 25 pounds, whatever.
Speaker A:And I tried low carb before, and I'd never been able to get over the carbohydrate cravings.
Speaker A:And that just stopped.
Speaker A:And the fact that I stopped eating carbs meant that I stopped eating wheat.
Speaker A:And I discovered that I had have a serious gluten intolerance.
Speaker A:And the combination of those two things, the seed oil consumption and the gluten consumption, pretty much accounted for all of my health problems.
Speaker A:And I was pretty quickly able to fire my concierge doctor.
Speaker A:I went to him all the time with all sorts of things, and everything got better, and it's been great.
Speaker A:And 15 years, it's been.
Speaker A:It's been miraculous, frankly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I remember.
Speaker A:I remember one day looking at myself in the mirror and thinking, wow, you know, you're.
Speaker A:You're really getting old, and you're looking old.
Speaker A:And shortly after I fixed my diet, I started getting carded at bars.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:I'm as vain as the next person.
Speaker A:That was pretty flattering when a.
Speaker A:When a gay man at a bar cards you, you know, obviously you're looking a lot younger.
Speaker A:And all the people I worked with, you know, most, a lot of these health issues had happened while I was at work, so they were all aware of them.
Speaker A:And people started coming up to me and saying, you know, what are you doing differently?
Speaker A:You look, you've lost so much weight.
Speaker A:You look so much healthier.
Speaker A:What happened?
Speaker A:So I started talking to the people I worked with and then working with some of the people I worked with.
Speaker A:And they were also able to do some fairly amazing things with their health.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:That is a really amazing story, especially that you were one of the first ones I would say to really understand, like, how harm seed oils can be.
Speaker B:But I really resonate with your story from your childhood of cavities, because I had the same situation.
Speaker B:I had so many cavities as a kid.
Speaker B:Seems like every time I would go to the dentist, he would find new cavities.
Speaker B:But they never told me to stop eating sugar or change my diet.
Speaker B:And I didn't really have that understanding during my childhood.
Speaker B:I wish I would have, because just like you, once I, as an adult, I started understanding nutrition and the connection I've never had another cavity after that.
Speaker B:So I just, I feel like it's such a crime that it's not being shared.
Speaker B:Like, I think it should be taught in schools to little kids.
Speaker B:Just like they teach you how to brush your teeth.
Speaker B:Like, like it should be such a basic knowledge that taught to children.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:Well instead they encourage them to eat sugar because they prohibit them.
Speaker A:I mean it's crazy.
Speaker A:In our school system here in the United States, you have, you know, the schools are basically banned from giving the kids full f milk.
Speaker A:But it's fine for them to give chocolate milk because chocolate milk has the saturated fat removed.
Speaker A:Even though it has lots of sugar in it.
Speaker A:That's okay.
Speaker A:I mean, it's nuts.
Speaker B:So I think I want to start by kind of diving into the seed oil topic by talking about saturated fats a little bit and why they, why we moved away from them.
Speaker B:Because I remember.
Speaker B:So I actually grew up in Europe and then I went to college in the U.S.
Speaker B:so I spent, spent my childhood in Europe and I remember my grandparents and parents still cooked with like lard.
Speaker B:Basically that was the most difficult thing they cooked with.
Speaker A:Can I ask what country you grew up in?
Speaker B:Hungary.
Speaker A:Hungary, okay.
Speaker B:In Eastern Europe.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So at the time they still cooked with lard.
Speaker B:But then I remember by the time I was a teenager is when we start cooking with seed oils, like when the seed oil started coming in.
Speaker B:So like it was in the 80s for in Europe.
Speaker B:It probably happened sooner in the US and that's when we started.
Speaker A:I think you were probably somewhat protected by communism.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, for whatever reason I think that we got that later in.
Speaker B:But then I remember we also had a lot of margarine and started using like all of a sudden all the saturated fats got demonized and we didn't.
Speaker B:I at the time I didn't really have an understanding of why.
Speaker B:We just like, oh, this is what's healthier.
Speaker B:So we like automatically switched over using that.
Speaker B:Because my family have a really strong history of heart disease and I think back then the narrative was that it was more heart healthy to eat things like margarine and have seed oils that you cook with.
Speaker B:So tell me a little bit about the history in the US like how did that transition take place?
Speaker A:So one, one part about my background I didn't mention, I'm essentially a self taught engineer.
Speaker A:The job that I was talking about, I was the chief technology officer of a hedge fund and I had taught myself programming and risk management and everything else I needed to do that job at a very High level.
Speaker A:So when I started getting into nutrition, I thought, okay, I'll just learn this, right?
Speaker A:Can't be that hard.
Speaker A:So I've done an enormous amount of reading, more, I think it's fair to say, than a lot of people have done, especially in this particular area.
Speaker A:So when saturated.
Speaker A:When heart disease started becoming a really noticeable problem and was in the probably the 40s and the 50s in the United States, that's when people started, you know, when they redid the cause of death table to include basically what we now call heart disease, ischemic heart disease.
Speaker A:In the early part of the 20th century, that was almost unknown.
Speaker A:You know, car the type of physician called a cardiologist wasn't around until the early part of the 20th century because they just weren't needed.
Speaker A:So when they were trying to figure out why all of these people started dying of heart diseases, you would have, you know, children dying before their parents.
Speaker A:It was really a very rapid onset and widespread throughout the population.
Speaker A:They noticed that atherosclerotic plaques that they also often found in these sick hearts had a lot of fat in them and also a lot of cholesterol.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In the cholesterol they could see because of the cholesterol crystals that would form in these plaques.
Speaker A:So they blamed what they could see.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And makes sense to a certain extent.
Speaker A:They pretty quickly realized, however, that dietary cholesterol had no impact on cholesterol in the bloodstream.
Speaker A:Virtually no impact.
Speaker A:A tiny impact.
Speaker A:And so they started looking at other things.
Speaker A:And the scientist who led this, who probably all of your fans have heard about Ancel Keys, he's noticed in the early 50s that when he was trying to do different fat feeding protocols, because he'd moved on at this point to fat must be the cause of it, because that's the other thing.
Speaker A:And, you know, that's the other dietary component that we can see in these plaques.
Speaker A:And he started to notice that if you fed people seed oils, that it would lower the serum cholesterol.
Speaker A:And by cholesterol, we don't mean just the cholesterol component.
Speaker A:We mean the things that carry cholesterol, which are a combination of protein, fats, and cholesterol.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That's the LDL and the VLDL and the other blood, what we now call lipoproteins.
Speaker A:So his idea was blood cholesterol.
Speaker A:This package of fats and cholesterol is the problem he had there.
Speaker A:There was some epidemio.
Speaker A:Epidemiological evidence, but not very good, that this was correlated with heart disease.
Speaker A:Across different countries.
Speaker A:And he jumped a gun and he convinced the American Heart association to recommend to the entire country, and thus effectively to the entire world, that in order to reduce your risk of heart disease, you should start cutting back on your animal fats, which is where most of the saturated fats were found at the time, and increase your consumption of poly.
Speaker A:Polyunsaturated fats, which meant these seed oils.
Speaker A:Now, there were two problems with that.
Speaker A:The first problem was that they'd never done an experiment in humans or in animals showing that this would actually reduce heart disease.
Speaker A:And the other problem, and probably at that point the bigger problem, was that the massive increase of heart disease early in the 20th, 20th century had been associated with a massive increase in the consumption of seed oils.
Speaker A:So they ignored that piece of evidence.
Speaker A:A number of the doctors pointed it out.
Speaker A:You know, why would we think.
Speaker A:Why would we think that this giving more of something would make it better when it's been associated with this increase?
Speaker A:And one of the founding cardiologists in the United States, Paul Dudley White, who founded the AHA and, you know, was literally one of the first cardiologists in the world, he said, well, I don't understand how this can be what's causing heart disease, because when I started practicing, hardly anybody ate any of these seed oils.
Speaker A:Everybody ate animal fats, and nobody got any of these diseases.
Speaker A:But they kind of brushed that all aside and went on with this recommendation, and they've been going with that recommendation ever since.
Speaker A:Now, have they tested it?
Speaker A:And they have.
Speaker A:They ran a whole variety of tests back in the 60s into the early 70s.
Speaker A:And the problem is that all of their tests are showed that if you replace saturated fat with seed oils, your rate of heart disease goes up.
Speaker A:Okay, your blood cholesterol goes down.
Speaker A:That's correct.
Speaker A:But your disease, your death rate, what we care about, goes up.
Speaker A:And they basically swept that evidence under the rug and have been doing so ever since.
Speaker A:And, you know, it's ironic because the biggest trial that was ever done to test this hypothesis was done by the Amer, was started by guys associated with the American Heart association and had government support, and it failed.
Speaker A:But the most rigorous part of it, what's now known as the Minnesota Coronary experiment, continued, led by Ancel Keys.
Speaker A:So he was testing his own hypothesis, and it was a failure.
Speaker A:The people who had higher rates of heart disease were those people who had more seed oil consumption.
Speaker A:And the increase in heart disease was in proportion to the decrease in their dietary cholesterol.
Speaker A: That study finished in: Speaker A: n that wasn't published until: Speaker A:And they do their best to ignore it.
Speaker B:Start with the basics.
Speaker B:What are seed oils?
Speaker A:Seed oils are the fats that you find in seeds.
Speaker A:Which sounds silly, but the reason we make that distinction is that, you know, under the umbrella of vegetable oils, there are oils that we get from fruits, right, from the soft outer part of the fruit, like olive oil and avocado oil.
Speaker A:And then there are oils that we get from the actual seed.
Speaker A:So whether it's corn or soybean or, you know, rice bran oil, all these oils that are contained in the seeds.
Speaker A:And seeds have a dis.
Speaker A:Tend to have a disproportionate amount of a type of polyunsaturated fat called an omega 6 fat.
Speaker A:This is contrasted to the rest of the plant leaves, for instance, which tend to have more of a fat called the omega 3 fat.
Speaker A:So animals get their omega 3 and their omega 6 fats from consuming plants.
Speaker A:Animals largely aren't capable of making these fats, so they have to consume them.
Speaker A:And the problem with the polyunsaturated fats is because of the structure of the fat, they're called unsaturated because they're not fully saturated with hydrogen.
Speaker A:They are missing hydrogen atoms, and that makes them much more susceptible to being oxidized, combining with oxygen.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And the products that they form when they combine with oxygen are in some cases quite highly toxic.
Speaker A:So when we discuss rancid fats or rancid foods, rancidity essentially means the oxidation of peroxid of polyunsaturated fats.
Speaker A:Whether it's a fish that goes rancid or, you know, meat that goes rancid, those are the fats that are susceptible to going rancid.
Speaker A:And I'm pretty sure all of us, you know, with some small exceptions in, say, Norway, where eating rotten fish is considered a delicacy, most of us were told by our parents, if it smells bad, don't eat it.
Speaker A:And that's because it becomes toxic, it will make you sick.
Speaker A:So, problem is, with animals and people, we can detect, because Omega 6 fats in the natural diet are pretty rare, unless you're a mouse or something, we tend not to have the revulsion response to the omega.
Speaker A:To the rancid omega 6 fats that we do to rancid omega 3 fats.
Speaker A:I mean, everybody can smell a fish and say, oh, that's bad.
Speaker A:I can't eat that.
Speaker A:But people don't have that same reaction to people, and animals don't have that same reaction to rancid omega 6 fats.
Speaker A:So that's beneficial for the food industry because they can put these fats into processed foods, and even though they go bad, people will still buy them and eat them.
Speaker B:Would you mind just sort of for.
Speaker B:For the people that are not familiar what seed oils are.
Speaker B:So maybe just list them out like soybean, sunflower, canola.
Speaker B:What are like the.
Speaker B:I think those are like the most typically used.
Speaker B:But can you just give us a list so people understand the difference?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:There's cottonseed, corn oil, soybean oil, rice bran oil.
Speaker A:I mentioned before, canola oil is ironically, probably one of the better ones, although it has its own issues because of its omega 3 content.
Speaker A:There is peanut oil.
Speaker A:Anything with nut or seed or bean in the title is going to be.
Speaker A:Is going to contain a lot of these problematic fats.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think canola called different names in different countries.
Speaker B:I think rapeseed oil is also canola oil.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's pretty much the same thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Canola oil is a type of rapeseed oil.
Speaker A:It was bred in Canada to have less of this other fat called ericic acid that was thought to be bad for people, ironically because it was.
Speaker A:It's thought to cause heart disease.
Speaker A:That's an amusing side story.
Speaker A:Maybe we'll go get into that.
Speaker A:But at any rate, so, yeah, rape.
Speaker A:Rapeseed oil in the European.
Speaker A:In the European Union or in the United States, it's not legal to sell it if it has a lot of this ericic acid in it.
Speaker A:So they call it zero rapeseed or zero rapeseed over there, but it's basically the same thing as canola.
Speaker A:Canola is just a marketing title for zero ericic acid rapeseed oil.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And I think what the listeners that are not familiar with this topic really need to understand is so ubiquitous that it's literally everywhere.
Speaker B:So almost every restaurant cooks with this, almost most processed foods.
Speaker B:You're going to find some sort of seed oil in that.
Speaker B:It is extremely hard to avoid.
Speaker B:And I admire the fact that you've been seed oil free for 15 years because I understand how hard it is to do that.
Speaker B:It's only been on my radar for the last couple of years, and it's been extremely challenging for me to avoid it in my diet.
Speaker B:So can you talk about how this has got into literally entire food supply and and kind of replaced everything else.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was actually blessed by that dentist because when he.
Speaker A:Because another thing that that's in all of our foods is sugar, added sugar.
Speaker A:So when I stopped eating sugar, I started reading labels and it was just another thing, you know, I pretty much simultaneously discovered my gluten intolerance as well as the negative effects of seed oils.
Speaker A:So those were just another couple of things that I had at starting.
Speaker A:Had to start looking for in labels of foods that I was buying.
Speaker A:So for me, I was kind of blessed in an odd sort of way that I was already reading the labels on everything I ate.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's, I mean, part of it.
Speaker A:The original reason for adding seed oils into the diet is because it was cheaper.
Speaker A:Cottonseed oil was originally garbage.
Speaker A:It was an industrial waste product as part of producing cotton for clothing.
Speaker A:They had, you know, the cotton, you know, that puff of cotton that they make your clothes out is the seed pod of the cotton plant and it's got all these seeds in it.
Speaker A:And they didn't have any use for the seeds, can't feed them to animals because cottonseed particularly is very toxic if you eat too much of it.
Speaker A:So they would have piles of seeds all over the place that just rotting.
Speaker A:They started trying to make it into lamp seed oil back when people were.
Speaker A:But then the, you know, discovery of kerosene kind of kibosh that because extinguish that I guess I should say because kerosene was even cheaper.
Speaker A:And then they started figuring out that if they purified it a little bit, they could feed it to animals and then to people.
Speaker A:Yay.
Speaker A: icity of cottonseed oil until: Speaker A:And by that point it was already a firmly established part of the food supply.
Speaker A:Just because the cheapness of it.
Speaker A:They didn't really understand the health impacts.
Speaker A:It's not like, I mean, they understood that it was toxic if you fed too much of it to animals, but they didn't understand the long term impacts at the time.
Speaker A:And those weren't discovered until much, much later.
Speaker A:Then of course, you know, by the time it was firmly established in the food supply, along comes the American Heart association and the cardiology profession and gives it this health halo that it was never really understood to have prior to that.
Speaker A:And you know, if you ignore the negative evidence as they did, it's really EAS to spread a message like that.
Speaker A:Everybody wants, you know, at the time, President, you know, the U.S.
Speaker A:president Eisenhower had just had a heart attack and part of his Treatment for that was to be put on a corn oil diet, which didn't prevent him from having multiple other heart attacks and health problems.
Speaker A:But nevertheless, that's another issue.
Speaker B:I think the point I'm.
Speaker B:I'm trying to get across to.
Speaker B:To listeners is that it's not just the oil that you cook with when you're making your food, that it's in everything.
Speaker B:It's in your salad dressing, your baked goods, your snacks, all your processed foods.
Speaker B:And also understand that a lot of animals that we eat today, eggs, poultry, pork, that these animals also consume a diet high in linoleic acid.
Speaker B:And it's also food chain, the food supply.
Speaker B:So it's very, very difficult to have a low linoleic acid.
Speaker B:D.
Speaker B:So can you speak to that a little bit more?
Speaker A:Yeah, sure.
Speaker A:First, let me compliment you.
Speaker A:You've clearly done your homework.
Speaker A:Linoleic acid is the omega 6 fat that's in seed oils.
Speaker A:And as you mentioned, animals like people or chicken or pigs or fish that are fed excess linoleic acid, they concentrate it in their tissues.
Speaker A:So the biggest source of omega 6 fat in the American diet is chicken and chicken foods.
Speaker A:Probably a lot of fried chicken in there.
Speaker A:You know, ironically, if you talk to a dietitian or a nutrition scientist, they will tell you, don't eat fried foods.
Speaker A:What's wrong with fried foods?
Speaker A:They're cooked in seed oils, which you tell us are healthy.
Speaker A:They never really want to go into the whole part of the story that, oh, well, they're only bad because they get oxidized when they're cooking.
Speaker A:And the next part of the question is, well, does that oxidation process happen in our body even if we're eating less oxidized things, like what you would find in salad dressing, as you said?
Speaker A:And the answer is absolutely yes.
Speaker A:And pork, chicken, if it's fed industrially, which basically means they are in cages and they are feeding them, you know, a lot of carbohydrates and then enough seed oils or grain to fatten them up, then they're.
Speaker A:The levels of omega 6 linoleic acid in their body is going to be much higher than it would be naturally.
Speaker A:And, you know, there's a great paper by the gentleman I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, Stefan Guillenay, where he went back and looked at human levels of omega 6 fats across the 20th century.
Speaker A:And in our fat, there's a steady climb over the 20th century as we eat more and more of it because we concentrate it in our body and because we're eating so much of it.
Speaker A:We don't have our, the opportunity to burn, you know, we were eating a little bit of it, we could burn it off and it wouldn't be such a problem.
Speaker A:But we're eating it all the time and we can't get rid of it.
Speaker A:And the same thing happens in animals.
Speaker A:And there are papers showing that industrial eggs, basically non pastured eggs, cause the change in our blood lipids that's thought to lead to heart disease.
Speaker A:That people who eat a lot more chicken and pork compared to beef, which has much less omega 6 fats, tend to gain weight more over time.
Speaker A:Beef seems to be protective against gaining weight.
Speaker A:So that's, yeah, that's a huge convenience, huge problem when it comes to the convenience of eating.
Speaker A:The plus side is as I discovered that everything tastes a lot better when you cook it with butter or whatever else.
Speaker A:And you know, while it's a bit of a challenge to do that, sometimes it makes for much better tasting food.
Speaker A:I did an interview with a famous chef here in the United States, Chef Andrew Gruel, who has a mostly, last I heard, almost entirely seed oil free restaurant.
Speaker A:And part of his pitch to his guests is that everything tastes better.
Speaker A:And french fries for instance, cooked in tallow as he does, taste fantastic.
Speaker A:And they don't have that.
Speaker A:Once you stop eating seed oils and you start to be able to recognize that rancid seed oil smell like when you walk by a fast food restaurant, you'll, you, you can tell, right?
Speaker A:You can smell it in the air.
Speaker A:And he was describing to us how people go by his fire and they're like, are you cooking donuts back there?
Speaker A:What smells so delicious?
Speaker A:And it's the tallow he's using, right?
Speaker A:It has this wonderful pleasant smell that the rancid acrid seed oils, you know, they subtract from the quality of the food that you're making.
Speaker A:They don't add to it.
Speaker B:I think one point I just want to reiterate, so make sure everybody heard it, is that linoleic acid gets stored in our bodies and accumulates over time.
Speaker B:And the half life of getting rid of it is very long.
Speaker B:I think it's like over 10 years or something.
Speaker B:I don't remember the exact.
Speaker B:It's, it's a very long time.
Speaker B:So even if it's about 2, I.
Speaker A:Don'T, I don't want to be too hopeless about this.
Speaker A:10 years is a long time.
Speaker A:The half life is about, it's 680 days is the best.
Speaker A:So call it two years.
Speaker A:And what that means is that if you have say 10% or 20% of the fat in your fat tissue is linoleic acid.
Speaker A:It's going to take you two years to get that down to 10% and then another two years to get it down to 5%.
Speaker A:And there are strategies that you can do to try and accelerate that.
Speaker A:First one obviously is to not eat it all the time the way we do now.
Speaker B:I definitely want to circle back to the strategies I want to spend a lot of time on.
Speaker B:How do we actually implement a diet, you know, free of seed oils and how do we get this out of our, our systems?
Speaker B:Because what I couple of things I see really problematic.
Speaker B:One is a lot of people on ketogenic diet really not understanding how to eat clean and eat just so many fats in their diet that are just not good quality fats and.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And the second, and they are trying to do it for health reasons.
Speaker B:They're trying to be healthy, they're trying to lose weight, whatever, whatever their reason is.
Speaker B:But yet they're putting a lot of toxic fats into their bodies that accumulate.
Speaker B:And the second thing is just generally people that are overweight and already have a lot of extra body fat, those people have a lot of accumulated things in their infect tissue that where we store a lot of these toxins.
Speaker B:And when you start losing weight, all of a sudden your body start liberating a lot of toxins that can create a lot of health problems when people go on this sort of weight loss journey.
Speaker B:Can you speak to those issues?
Speaker A:Let me address the second one, the second point.
Speaker A:It's important to understand that just because the fat is in storage in your fat tissue, that doesn't mean that it's neutral.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:There is a condition called adiposa dolorosa, which means painful fat or sad fat.
Speaker A:And it seems to be caused by the oxidation of the omega 6 fats in storage, which causes damage to the fat tissue and pain.
Speaker A:Linoleic acid is considered to be a well known pain stimulator in the body.
Speaker A:The things that it breaks down to into the oxidative products are well known pain stimulators in the body.
Speaker A:So my view is that you want to get rid of it as fast as possible out of fat tissue.
Speaker A:There's no benefit whatsoever that I've ever heard to trying to keep it in fat in fat.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't think it's even possible to do that.
Speaker A:Your body preferentially liberates it from fat, which would make sense if your body's evolved to try and you Know, your body, body has evolved a number of protected measures against oxidation of polyunsaturated fats.
Speaker A:And one of them is preferentially burning it when you eat it and another is preferentially burning it when it's stored in tissue.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:That's a common misunderstanding.
Speaker A:I think that you want to try and reduce your fat stores of it as fast as possible.
Speaker A:And because it's going to be doing damage and it's systemic damage, it's not just limited to your fat tissue.
Speaker A:When it's in your fat cells 100%.
Speaker B:You want to get rid of it.
Speaker B:I think the point I'm trying to get across is that you are what you eat in many ways.
Speaker B:And I think people don't get this concept of our cells at a cellular level.
Speaker B:We are made out of what you bring in.
Speaker B:It's food and light and oxygen and all these things for us to.
Speaker B:We are constantly regenerating at a cellular level and we store.
Speaker B:It gets stored in your body and in your organs and tissues.
Speaker B:The nutrients or anti nutrients, whatever you're eating.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:And so a lot of people that are obese or overweight can be very toxic.
Speaker B:And that's partly why you have obesity, fatty liver, cardiovascular disease, and a lot of these other things.
Speaker B:So can you just maybe expand a little bit about what are the conditions that are caused by the over consumption of linoleic acid in your diet?
Speaker A:Well, in my opinion, it's all of the chronic diseases, heart disease.
Speaker A:I mean, starting from the biggest killer, heart disease, several types of cancers, not, I won't say cancer.
Speaker A:Blanket cancer is a very complicated disease.
Speaker A:But there are certain types of cancer like colon cancer, which is the biggest, which is after lung cancer, the biggest killer.
Speaker A:Breast cancer has clear links to seed oil consumption.
Speaker A:Diabetes is, if you want to induce diabetes, insulin resistance into people, you can do it by either injecting or giving them soybean oil to eat.
Speaker A:That's how it's done in the laboratory.
Speaker A:Soybean oil, by the way, is the leading fat source in the United States nowadays, which may be why a majority of Americans are now diabetic.
Speaker A:Autoimmune diseases.
Speaker A:I would argue that heart disease and diabetes are both autoimmune diseases ultimately.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And they are both known to be associated with chronic inflammation.
Speaker A:Chronic inflammation is often called sterile inflammation, which means that there is not a pathogen, not a virus or a bacteria that's causing it.
Speaker A:The autoimmune diseases is something where we could go, you know, that's a really interesting topic because it's something we're not told is that autoimmune diseases did not exist as a widespread phenomenon before people started eating in industrial, an industrial diet.
Speaker A:When physicians went into Africa in the latter part of the 18th century and the first part of the 19th century, the people they encountered didn't have autoimmune diseases.
Speaker A:They didn't have things like diverticulitis, which put me in the hospital a couple of times.
Speaker A:They didn't have heart disease the way we do now.
Speaker A: mazing study done back in the: Speaker A:And they looked at African Americans living in America to Africans living in Africa, Japanese in America to Japanese looking in Japan, and white Americans like me.
Speaker A:And at the time, black Americans had half the heart disease rate of white Americans.
Speaker A:Now they have more.
Speaker A:At the time in the 60s, they had half the rate.
Speaker A:Africans in Africa had zero heart attacks.
Speaker A:And it's tough for people to get their brains around that, that this is that new of a disease.
Speaker A:And I mean, you can look at Egyptian mummies or whatever who had atherosclerotic plaques, that's fine.
Speaker A:But what we care about are heart heart attacks.
Speaker A:If you die with some atherosclerotic plaques in your 90s, who cares?
Speaker A:What we're worried about is dying in our 50s from heart, from a heart attack.
Speaker A:That's really the risk factor here.
Speaker A:And a heart attack is something that you can tell on, on autopsy.
Speaker A:If you get hit by a bus when you're 80, they can look at your heart and tell that you had a heart attack when you were in your 50s because of the damage to the heart.
Speaker A:And they were able to find, out of 4,500 autopsies, they were able to find a single evidence, single heart that had evidence of a heart attack in the United states, it was 15% for Africans, American, African Americans, and well over 20% for white Americans.
Speaker A:Same thing in Japan.
Speaker A:You know, the Japanese percent of heart heart attacks was around 1% outside of the city of Tokyo versus, I think it was like 12 to 15% here in the United States.
Speaker A:So for some reason, everybody, everybody who moved to the United States starts getting colon cancer, heart disease, breast cancer, and all of these autoimmune diseases as they adopt the American diet.
Speaker A:And in the case of heart disease, specifically, we now know the exact biochemical pathway that causes heart disease in humans.
Speaker A:And it starts with consumption of seed oils.
Speaker A:Consumption of seed oils.
Speaker A:They oxidize, they make your lipoproteins toxic lipoproteins.
Speaker A:Kick off the pattern of atherosclerosis as they're poisoning your heart, and ultimately they do enough damage to cause, you know, heart attack and heart failure and all the other things that we see in advanced cardiovascular disease.
Speaker B:Can you explain sort of the mechanism of action of why linoleic acid is actually.
Speaker B:What is it doing in our body?
Speaker B:Like, what is.
Speaker B:What is it doing that's harmful?
Speaker B:What's causing us to develop all these diseases?
Speaker A:So in your body, there's this process of what they call lipid peroxidation is the process of these fats becoming oxidized.
Speaker A:There's two types of oxidation.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:There's you eat a fat and you oxidize it, meaning you burn it for an energy that's fine.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:Then there's you eat a fat and you make it into part of your body, as you were saying before, and then it becomes oxidized.
Speaker A:It's not being burned for fuel.
Speaker A:It's becoming damaged and becoming.
Speaker A:And the toxins that are a product of those damage get released into your body and can do things like damage proteins, damage your DNA.
Speaker A:One of the primary causes, we think of cancer is the damage to a gene called p53, which is the tumor suppression gene.
Speaker A:Oxidized seed oils can damage that protein and impair the ability to suppress tumors.
Speaker A:Obviously, that's not a good thing.
Speaker A:So these.
Speaker A:So I'll.
Speaker A:I'll refer to that second type as peroxidation.
Speaker A:That's the chemically correct term anyway.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So when fats become peroxidized in your body, they may not function the same way.
Speaker A:Every cell in your body is surrounded by a lipid membrane.
Speaker A:And a lot of the organs in your cells are surrounded by lipid membranes.
Speaker A:And these membranes are all.
Speaker A:They're fats with some proteins in it.
Speaker A:And when the fats get altered, meaning you're not eating enough, say, omega 3 fats, or the fats become peroxidized in the membranes.
Speaker A:They can't function the way they're going to, the way they're supposed to.
Speaker A:This can affect your vision.
Speaker A:For instance, if animals don't get enough omega 3 fats when they're developing, then they can have problems with brain function.
Speaker A:They can have problems with eye development because they don't have the proper fats making the membranes.
Speaker A:There are these fats, these peroxides are used by the body, which is why the body is storing them.
Speaker A:They use them to.
Speaker A:For signaling membranes or for signaling molecules, part of the trigger.
Speaker A:Interestingly enough, one of the big questions I've always had is why does breast milk have so much linoleic acid in it?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Even human breast milk.
Speaker A:If you look at primitive humans, like there's a tribe in the Amazonian rainforest, they have a fair level of linoleic acid in the breast milk.
Speaker A:It's much less than, say, Americans would have.
Speaker A:But it turns out that part of the signal for why babies nurse comes from linoleic acid being converted into a signal to feed.
Speaker A:And that's why we think that humans are becoming obese.
Speaker A:I mean, if you take a.
Speaker A:A mouse and you give it a drug called Ramona Ban, which blocks this pathway of omega 6 fats being converted into this chemical signal to eat, they starve to death, they won't nurse, they just stop and they will die within a few days.
Speaker A:So imagine now that you give a whole country an excess amount of these chemicals, precursors to build these chemicals that make you overeat.
Speaker A:Would you be shocked if everybody became fat over the next couple of generations?
Speaker A:No, of course not.
Speaker A:But that's what we've done to ourselves.
Speaker A:Ozempic is a drug that blocks part of this pathway and blocks some of the production of lipid peroxides, which is why they're now starting to figure out that, you know, ozempic and wigavy and I can't even list a whole bunch of them, they're not only beneficial for diabetes and for obesity, but they're discovering that they're also beneficial for cardiovascular disease and they think kidney failure.
Speaker A:And the reason is that it downgrades the production of these lipid peroxides in the body, which suggests, as I was arguing, that there's a common mechanism behind all of these different diseases.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would love to now dive into sort of how do we make a lifestyle change?
Speaker B:So all these people listening, saying, hopefully having a moment, like, okay, I need to get this out of my diet.
Speaker B:How do I start?
Speaker B:What are the healthy oils and fats?
Speaker B:What should I cook with?
Speaker B:What are the red flags?
Speaker B:I should, you know, when I look at labels in the grocery store, what should I look for and how do I eat out safely?
Speaker A:The obvious thing is don't cut your consumption of concentrated sources of linoleic acid.
Speaker A:So salad dressings that you buy in the store or eat in a super or eat in a restaurant are virtually always going to have a lot of soybean oil or whatever else in them.
Speaker A:Processed foods.
Speaker A:Don't buy processed foods that have, let's say, vegetable oil or any type of oil in them.
Speaker A:They virtually never use some of the healthier fats, like.
Speaker A:Like olive oil or avocado oil.
Speaker A:Even if you go and buy mayonnaise made with olive oil, unless it's one of a couple of brands, you're going to turn it over on the back and the first ingredient is going to be soybean oil.
Speaker A:And olive oil will be well down the list of ingredients, meaning.
Speaker A:Or avocado will be well down the list of ingredients, meaning they're not using much of it.
Speaker A:I mean, allying that goes on these labels.
Speaker B:Yeah, sorry, I was just going to interject.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I don't know.
Speaker B:People know, like, mayonnaise is like, I think 75% canola oil or whatever oil they make it out.
Speaker B:I don't think people realize that when you put mayonnaise on your sandwich, you're mostly spreading oil.
Speaker B:Seed oil, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:An emulsion of seed oil, soybean oil.
Speaker B:I mean, it is really disgusting.
Speaker B:If you actually look at the label, and I make my clients look at labels, and.
Speaker B:And it's like, horrific.
Speaker B:I think you will stop forever buying.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Obviously, there's a lot of pushback against this from, unfortunately, mainly health practitioners, but also a lot of industry people.
Speaker A:But if you go read the industry papers, as I have done, soybean oil is referred to in the industry literature as obesogenic, meaning it causes obesity.
Speaker A:And you can find papers paid for by companies like dupont showing that lowering soybean oil in a product will reduce the obesogenic effect of it, and that replacing it with something like coconut oil will eliminate the obesogenic effect of it.
Speaker A:And then you turn to a nutritionist, and there are good ones and bad ones.
Speaker A:I don't want to beat up.
Speaker A:I don't want to, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater here, but the average nutritionist is going to say, oh, you can't eat coconut oil.
Speaker A:It's full of saturated fats.
Speaker A:Yes, but it's not obesogenic like soybean oil is.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, it's.
Speaker A:It should be criminal to tell somebody who's overweight to consume soybean oil because of some debunked idea that it was going to improve their heart disease anyway.
Speaker A:Sorry, I get a little annoyed about that.
Speaker B:Before we go any further, I think we should just start with telling people, like, what are the good fats and oils?
Speaker B:Are you already listed off of coconut oil?
Speaker B:Avocado, olive?
Speaker B:Give me your whole list of good fats and oils.
Speaker A:At the top of my pyramid, I'm going to put pastured fats Pastured animal fats.
Speaker A:Okay, which is cows that eat nothing but grass.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Pigs that are out in a field, chickens that are pastured, chickens eating grass and bugs in a field, like what they're supposed to do.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, in Jewish culture, there's.
Speaker A:Because of their religious constraints, they eat a fat called schmaltz, which is chicken fat.
Speaker A:And if you're getting that from healthy chickens, that's probably a reasonably healthy thing to eat.
Speaker A:Below that would be fats from industrially fed animals.
Speaker A:So you're going to have industrial dairy, the regular butter that you get at the store that doesn't say pastured butter, any sort of other dairy product.
Speaker A:Below that, you're going to have things like lard.
Speaker A:I'm not a big fan of lard.
Speaker A:In the United States, lard is almost universally what they use in animal experiments to make animals fat.
Speaker A:And that's because we are feeding pigs so much grain and seed oils to fatten them up that they have super high levels of.
Speaker A:Of linoleic acid in the lard.
Speaker A:So below that, I'm going to say the healthy animal fats, maybe in the same line with those, or the healthy vegetable fats, things like olive oil.
Speaker A:Olive oil can be great.
Speaker A:I mean, olive oil can be down to as low as 2% linoleic acid.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, it can be up to 20% linoleic acid.
Speaker A:And it's often, although we can't really tell how often, adulterated with seed oils.
Speaker A:Same problem with avocado oil.
Speaker A:I buy avocado oil, mayonnaise, that's actually made with avocado oil, I hope, because I like to have mayonnaise once in a while.
Speaker A:And that's a reasonably healthy way to do it.
Speaker A:I don't eat a lot of it.
Speaker A:I don't eat a lot of olive oil.
Speaker A:Coconut oil is also great.
Speaker A:You know, obviously, if you're cooking with it, there's a taste constraint.
Speaker A:Hilariously, Crisco makes a very nice virgin coconut oil now that you can buy in pretty much any supermarket.
Speaker A:I think sort of in that same level.
Speaker A:There are now, because industry recognizes that oxidized linoleic acid is a problem, they are trying to fix the problem by producing hyaleic versions of various different seed oils.
Speaker A:So there is hyalic sunflower oil, which basically means low linoleic sunflower oil.
Speaker A:I think there's safflower oil.
Speaker A:Some of them are gmo, some of them are not.
Speaker A:There's a hyaluronic peanut oil.
Speaker A:Apparently in Australia, you can get hyalic peanut butter meaning low lin laic peanut butter, which sounds great.
Speaker A:Here in the United States, peanut M Ms.
Speaker A:Are now made with low linoleic peanuts.
Speaker A:I'm a big fan of peanut M M so I'm happy about that.
Speaker A:And then virtually always avoid stuff for me are all the rest of the seed oils.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Anything that doesn't say hyalc meaning low linoleic, you want to try and avoid.
Speaker A:And you've always got to be cognizant of the dose.
Speaker A:I mean, if you buy bread and the thing, the sunflower oil is down at the bottom of the recipe list, there's not going to be a lot of it in the bread.
Speaker A:But I wouldn't eat a lot of it because in the baking process it's going to get peroxidized.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, it's virtually impossible to find bread made with butter anymore in the store.
Speaker A:You know, and that's assuming you don't have a gluten problem like I do.
Speaker A:And then obviously all the way down at the bottom is fried oils.
Speaker A:And I'm going to include.
Speaker A:A lot of people don't recognize this because the nutrition quote unquote science people try and hide this fact that the worst way to fry in a seed oil is in a frying pan.
Speaker A:It's actually better to deep for your health to deep fry with these oils than it is to use in a frying pan.
Speaker A:And the reason for that is that a frying pan is shallow, so the oil is exposed to lots of oxygen, whereas in a deep fryer it's very deep and only the top is going to be exposed to oxygen.
Speaker A:So canola oil, I mentioned, there's a problem with that.
Speaker A:Canola oil is thought to be a worldwide cause of lung cancer in non smoking women.
Speaker A:In countries like China, this is well recognized.
Speaker A:There's a clear correlation between the amount of wok cooking, which is probably the worst way to cook with seed oils, and lung cancer rates in women who've never had a cigarette in their lives.
Speaker A:They've demonstrated this is true in commercial chefs.
Speaker A:So yeah, you get back to this.
Speaker A:Oh, canola oils.
Speaker A:A you know, and this is not just me saying this, this is listed as a canola oil.
Speaker A:And rapeseed oil specifically is listed as a probable human carcinogen by the World Health Organization.
Speaker A:And unlike some other things that they say might cause cancer like meat, they're actually able to demonstrate this in animal models.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If you give cooking oil fumes to animals, they will get lung cancer tumors.
Speaker A:Whereas if you give meat to animals they never develop cancer.
Speaker A:And then, you know, down the absolute bottom of the bar is say, McDonald's french fries fried in whatever it is they use or any restaurant French fry.
Speaker A:I mean, the biggest, the most.
Speaker A:According to Harvard School of Public Health, the most obesogenic food in the United States is french fries.
Speaker A:The second most obesogenic food in the United States are potato chips.
Speaker A:And interestingly enough, if you remove the seed oils, potatoes are a healthy food.
Speaker A:They're not obesogenic.
Speaker A:If you put dairy fat in them, they're not obesogenic.
Speaker A:It's only when you have seed oils, according to the School of Harvard, the Harvard School of Public Health.
Speaker A:So that's the absolute bottom of the barrel.
Speaker B:I think the other thing I would like to just touch on is that now that our listeners start cooking with avocado oil and olive oil and coconut oil and all these other oils, that I think another consideration that even with the so called quote unquote, healthier fats and oils, you need to consider the smoke point of those oils when you're cooking.
Speaker B:So a lot of people use, for example, olive oil to cook in.
Speaker B:And olive oil has a really low smoke point, so it still can go rinsent and, and a lot and before.
Speaker B:And I'll, I'll give you the floor in a second.
Speaker B:And that also, like half of olive oil in the grocery stores is actually made mixed with seed oils.
Speaker B:And people don't even know.
Speaker B:And there's a lot of fake olive oil out there.
Speaker B:So first of all, you need to know, like, it's a certified source of like, real olive oil that you're getting.
Speaker B:And second, you probably just want to put it on your salad and not cook with it.
Speaker B:What's your take on, on that?
Speaker A:Well, yeah, if you see olive oil blend, then, yeah, it's definitely blended with some sort of seed oil.
Speaker A:Smoke point I will disagree with you on.
Speaker A:Smoke point is a measure of how much smoke a fat emits when you burn it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:When you're frying, you shouldn't be burning the fat.
Speaker A:A fat like olive oil will have a lower smoke point because it has lots of impurities in it.
Speaker A:And the impurities will tend to smoke a little faster.
Speaker A:But that's not what makes a fat harmful.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So the fats with the highest smoke points are the refined seed oils.
Speaker A:And telling people that smoke point is important in a cooking oil is a way that the industry misleads people into using seed oils in cooking.
Speaker A:If you read the literature, what they tell you is the most important thing in the healthfulness of a fat is the linoleic acid content.
Speaker A:Because the higher the linoleic, as we've been discussing, the higher the linoleic acid content, the faster the oils will go rancid under heat, even before they get to the smoke point.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But there's a lot of healthy oils that have higher smoke points like coconut oil or even avocado oil.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So the point I'm making that there are even from the health quote, unquote, healthier fat alternatives, there's better options for, for higher temperature cooking than, let's say, olive oil because it does have an oxidation process that it goes through if it hits, if it, if you're starting to burn the oil itself.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Most cooking is done well under the smoke points of most of the oils that we used.
Speaker A:And even something like I always tell people, ideally what you want to do is keep the temperature low.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Smoke point is not an indicator.
Speaker A:A high smoke point is not an indicator of the healthfulness of a fat.
Speaker B:And that's not what I'm saying that it's healthy.
Speaker B:It's just that.
Speaker B:That you don't want to burn your oil when you're cooking.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:The point I'm trying to make because, because if you are, as you said, stir frying with olive oil that is going to, your olive oil will be rins, oxidize and it's going to be still bad for you.
Speaker B:So use, let's just say coconut oil or like a better, an oil that has a healthier oil with low linoleic acid that has a higher smoke point that will not burn as quickly and that you don't want to see your oil burning when you're cooking.
Speaker B:So exactly the point you're making to keep it at lower temperatures.
Speaker B:So that's the point I was trying to make because.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Our listeners are trying to switch their, hopefully switch their lifestyle and implement this.
Speaker B:So I just wanted to give that piece of caveat.
Speaker B:So let's go on to how do you eat out?
Speaker B:Because that is a struggle that I see because it like oftentimes when I ask them, hey, can you make this with ghee or, or, you know, can you cook this with ghee or butter or, or do you have olive oil?
Speaker B:So many restaurants don't even carry butter or olive oil at all.
Speaker B:And which is astonishing, but they don't have even basic things like butter unless you're in a fancier, maybe more gourmet type of restaurant.
Speaker B:So how do you eat out?
Speaker B:I know there is an App called the seed oil Scout that I use.
Speaker B:But they don't have a lot of restaurants on it.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, it's not unless you're in a big city.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:They really don't have a lot of options even on that.
Speaker B:Do you have any good tips and suggestions of how people can be smart about eating out?
Speaker A:It's hard.
Speaker A:I mean, virtually every restaurant is going to be using seed oils for everything.
Speaker A:And even if they tell you it's butter, it's probably a butter blend, which is going to be a couple percentage points of butter for flavor.
Speaker A:And the rest of it is going to be some sort of emulsified seed oil.
Speaker A:I've given up largely because of that on trying to get restaurants to swap out fats and food that they prepare for me.
Speaker A:So if I go get breakfast somewhere, I'll ask them to scramble the eggs in butter.
Speaker A:I don't know what they're actually using back there, but I figure that can't hurt.
Speaker A:For salad dressings, I generally just don't eat them.
Speaker A:I mean, I'll eat a salad dry.
Speaker A:When I was starting out, I used to bring.
Speaker A:One thing you can do is you can ask them for sour cream and vinegar and then you can make a little salad dressing with sour cream vinegar and salt and pepper, which is delicious and not going to have any seed oils in it typically and is going to be much tastier than, you know, in my opinion, the oil that they give you for the salad dressing, generally what I'm looking for is what their cooking method is.
Speaker A:So for instance, baked fish instead of sauteed fish or you know, grilled foods instead of sauteed foods.
Speaker A:Anything that's sauteed, you know, they're going to be sauteing it in seed oils.
Speaker A:Even steak is a problem.
Speaker A:I mean, for years I would avoid going to steak restaurants because I hated the way that steak tasted.
Speaker A:And it wasn't until I changed fixed my diet that I started understanding that the reason that steaks tasted so bad is because they put seed oils on the steaks so that they can sear them faster, but it makes them taste like crap.
Speaker A:Pardon me.
Speaker A:When I started cooking my own steak and not putting any oils on it because it's fatty.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I love steak now, but I still generally don't order it when I go out to a restaurant because the experience is so disappointing.
Speaker A:I eat a lot of hamburgers.
Speaker A:Even at McDonald's you can get a decent hamburger that is going to be cooked with a minimal amount of seed oils.
Speaker A:You know, I get because of the gluten intolerance.
Speaker A:I just get hamburger patties.
Speaker A:So I can go into any McDonald's in the country and order a bunch of hamburger patties and coffee with some half and half and get a decent meal where I don't have to worry about what the ingredients are.
Speaker A:McDonald's ironically mostly uses grass fed beef in their hamburger patties.
Speaker A:Not entirely, and I wouldn't guarantee that, but I don't go to McDonald's all that often just on road trips and things.
Speaker A:Vegetables steamed over, sauteed.
Speaker A:I mean any, you know, again, anything that's sauteed is going to be sauteed in seed oils.
Speaker A:You just have to take that for granted regardless of what they tell you.
Speaker A:So that's kind of how I try and solve the problem.
Speaker A:And honestly, you know, I, my wife and I like going out, but if we want a good meal, generally we stay home and we cook ourselves.
Speaker A:Because the quality of the food in my house and the taste of the food that I can produce in my house is better than virtually any restaurant out there.
Speaker A:And generally I'm disappointed with the restaurant food, you know, and I mean, french fries.
Speaker A:There's one restaurant I know that I will eat french fries in and I view it as, and it's a French restaurant where they have a gluten free fryer just for the french fries.
Speaker A:And they used I think peanut oil, which is a.
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:But I view it like having a cigar once every couple of years.
Speaker A:Yeah, and that Internet meme going around saying that a thing of french fries has as much toxic toxins in it as a pack of cigarettes is true.
Speaker A:Just so you know, I, I want.
Speaker B:To encourage anybody who's listening that if you have a restaurant, please start offering at least some options that are seed oil free.
Speaker B:At least have something on your menu that like actually list on your menu that you're offering avocado or olive oil or that you have butter, basic things like that.
Speaker B:Because there's a lot of health conscious people that are waking up and are looking for this and it's so hard to find things.
Speaker B:I also, I want us people to support apps like the Seed Oil Scout, which is a app that's been around for a short time and they list restaurants that have seed oil free items.
Speaker B:And if you have a restaurant, you should get listed with them because their app will be more effective when there's more participation from restaurants.
Speaker B:So yeah, the issue is like smaller cities, they just don't have that many options.
Speaker B:Partly because restaurants are not offering it.
Speaker B:But when you go to restaurant, you need to start asking for this.
Speaker B:Like, even though they may think you're crazy when you're asking for butter and those kind of things, the more we voice our opinions and tell the servers and the owners, like, I want them to see the demand for this because this needs to change and we need to have options to eat out.
Speaker B:Because just like you, what I do is I usually eat things that are grilled.
Speaker B:I usually eat either fish or beef, partly because of chicken and pork being so high in seed oils.
Speaker B:And usually if it's not, you know, it's probably not pastured, you know, animals that you're going to get.
Speaker B:Even if it says organic, that doesn't mean that it's.
Speaker B:It's going to be low in linoleic acid.
Speaker B:So I think your best option is still beef or fish.
Speaker B:And, and as you said, staying away from sauteing.
Speaker B:I don't put the salad dressing on unless they specifically tell me it's olive oil.
Speaker B:And even that, it's hard to verify because most of the time that olive oil going to be mixed with some seed oil that's in the restaurant that they tell you it's actually olive oil.
Speaker B:It's not olive oil and it's really disappointing.
Speaker B:But it's cheaper, so they're using whatever deliveries cost less, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For our listeners, if you want to make a dramatic improvement to your metabolic health, the first thing you want to do is start removing seed oils from your diet.
Speaker B:So thank you so much for this conversation, Tucker.
Speaker B:How can people connect with you and learn more about your work?
Speaker A:I'm very active on Twitter.
Speaker A:My handle is Tucker Goodrich.
Speaker A:I've got a substack and a newsletter that goes out via substack.
Speaker A:It's TuckerGoodrich substack.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for tuning in.
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