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Sleep Optimization & Circadian Health Explained | Mollie Eastman
If you're exhausted but can't sleep, stuck in a cycle of sleeping pills, or struggling to fix your sleep despite trying everything—this episode is for you. Sleep expert Molly Eastman reveals the overlooked causes of chronic insomnia, how modern life sabotages your circadian rhythm, and the breakthrough strategies that actually work. Learn how to reset your body clock, identify hidden sleep disorders, and optimize HRV for long-term health.
✅ Discover the real root of your sleep issues
✅ Learn why sleeping pills often backfire and what to do instead
✅ Understand social jet lag and how to fix it
✅ Explore powerful ENT procedures that can transform sleep
✅ Get actionable tips to boost HRV, energy, and metabolism
KEY TOPICS
- Why women are misdiagnosed with insomnia
- The link between breathing disorders and poor sleep
- Circadian disruption from indoor living and artificial light
- Chronobiology strategies for deep sleep and HRV recovery
- ENT procedures and sleep trackers that actually work
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] The misunderstood struggle of women with insomnia
[01:25] Molly’s personal journey with sleep anxiety and panic attacks
[04:12] Why sleeping pills aren’t the solution—and what is
[08:32] The truth about sleep quality and REM suppression
[13:54] Sleep apnea vs upper airway resistance syndrome explained
[17:24] ENT interventions like tongue tie release and nasal optimization
[21:07] How chronobiology helps reset your body clock
[26:53] Social jet lag, cortisol rhythm, and melatonin misfires
[30:58] Balancing social life with sleep goals
[35:14] Best sleep trackers and HRV tools for recovery
[42:44] How to connect with Molly and get started
Guest: Molly Eastman
Website: https://www.sleepisaskill.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sleepisaskill/
🌐 LET'S CONNECT 🌐
Host: Orshi McNaughton
Website: https://www.optimizedwomen.com/
Podcast Links: https://optimized-women.captivate.fm/listen
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@optimizedwomen
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/optimizedwomen
Transcript
Insomnia is a group of people that really want that sleep.
Speaker A:So if people are saying, you know, sometimes you see on social media like, oh, don't forget to get that sleep.
Speaker A:Oh, if you don't sleep, it's going to kill you, blah, blah.
Speaker A:Insomniacs don't need to usually hear this message because they're so wanting that sleep.
Speaker A:But then it feels as if it's eluding them, you know, from a result of their nervous system, their thinking around their sleeps, maybe some of the habits with their sleep and the way I was managing it was not the way to do it.
Speaker A:So what I was doing was trying to get sleep at any time I could.
Speaker A:And then if I had to sleep way in or just trying to like take these long naps, just I didn't have any strategies and any guidance on how to make a difference with this problem.
Speaker A:So because each place I went to was left with different types of sleeping pills, there was really this fear of, like, what's the plan here?
Speaker A:Am I this forever?
Speaker A:Like, what are we going to do here?
Speaker B:Welcome to the Optimized Woman, the podcast for high performing women ready to take back their health.
Speaker B:Hi, I'm Orshi McNaughton, a board certified holistic health practitioner and functional nutritionist.
Speaker B:If you're tired of feeling stuck, you can't lose the weight.
Speaker B:No matter what you do, your energy is in the toilet, your metabolism feels like it's at a standstill, and you lost the spark you once had, then you're in the right place.
Speaker B:We are here to unleash the unstoppable force you're meant to be and give you the tools to fix what's holding you back.
Speaker B:So if you're ready to own it, start thriving again and live the life you deserve.
Speaker B:And let's get to it.
Speaker A:Hey.
Speaker B:Welcome friends.
Speaker B:Today I'm joined by Molly Eastman, founder of Sleep is a skill and an expert in the art and science of optimizing sleep.
Speaker B:In this episode, we discuss Molly's journey from chronic insomnia to becoming a leading voice in sleep optimization.
Speaker B:Together, we explore the surprising impact of modern life on circadian health, including how our light exposure, indoor living and daily habits disrupt our natural sleep wake cycles.
Speaker B:Molly shares practical strategies for resetting our body's internal clock.
Speaker B:From mastering your wake up time to leveraging data from sleep trackers like our ORA ring.
Speaker B:We also dive into fascinating insights about common but underdiagnosed sleep disorders like upper airway resistance syndrome and how emerging treatments such as tongue tie releases and nasal Airway optimizations can really transform sleep quality.
Speaker B:So if you've ever struggled with restless nights or just want to take your sleep to the next level, this episode is for you.
Speaker C:So let's dive right in.
Speaker A:It was one of going through this period of insomnia that completely changed the course of my life.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, when I went to the doctors left with every type of sleeping pill and if anyone has dealt with sleeping issues, they might have unfortunately gone down a similar path.
Speaker A:And it doesn't have to look like that.
Speaker A:And that's actually not first line treatment.
Speaker A:I definitely want to get that message out in case people are like, what do I do?
Speaker A:I'm struggling with my sleep right now in the United States.
Speaker A:It's actually meant to be cbti, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for insomnia.
Speaker A:But unfortunately that wasn't my journey.
Speaker A:And like you mentioned, I was traveling internationally with my husband of 14 years and at the time is kind of in the beginning of our relationship and we were serial entrepreneurs out of Manhattan, burning the candle, both ends stressed to the max, decided to take our businesses on the road one way ticket.
Speaker A:And on one of the first nights that we landed in Madrid, I had a panic attack and I was like, did I make the wrong choice?
Speaker A:You know, we'd been stressed so much and adding to that stress by all the uncertainty of travel and all the things.
Speaker A:And so if anyone's dealt with like anxiety and stress and what have you, it's not the easiest to then fall asleep right after that, especially after jet lag.
Speaker A:And I've been traveling for hours and hours and so that night was not a lot of sleep.
Speaker A:And so then it just kept going night after night after night.
Speaker A:And what started to develop for me was something that we see a lot with people with insomnia, which is sleep anxiety.
Speaker A:So starting to get fixated on sleep.
Speaker A:So starting to be like, well, is it going to come tonight?
Speaker A:I don't, I don't think I can face another night.
Speaker A:And you're just so tightly focused on this area and so you want the sleep.
Speaker A:Like, you know, insomnia is a group of people that really want that sleep.
Speaker A:So if people are saying, you know, sometimes you see on social media like, oh, don't forget to get that sleep.
Speaker A:Oh, if you don't sleep, it's going to kill you, blah, blah.
Speaker A:Insomniacs don't need to usually hear this message because they're so wanting that sleep.
Speaker A:But then it feels as if it's eluding them, you know, from a result of their nervous System, their thinking around their sleeps, maybe some of the habits with their sleep.
Speaker A:And the way I was managing it was not the way to do it.
Speaker A:So what I was doing was trying to get sleep at any time I could.
Speaker A:And then if I had to sleep way in or just trying to like take these long naps, just I didn't have any strategies and any guidance on how to make a difference with this problem.
Speaker A:So because each place I went to was left with different types of sleeping pills that there was really this fear of like, what's the plan here?
Speaker A:Am I, is this forever?
Speaker A:Like, what are we going to do here?
Speaker A:And it was a very scary time for me because I come from a family with a lot of mental health issues.
Speaker A:And so it was a fear for me of like, oh, is this a moment where now I'm going to be dependent on these pharmaceutical drugs?
Speaker A:And I saw many people in my family be really connected to these drugs and their whole lives changing as a result over time.
Speaker A:And so there was a fear for me that was my new future.
Speaker A:So the stakes were high and so I went down the rabbit hole to really figure out what does it take to get great sleep.
Speaker A:And what I discover, discovered, completely changed the course of my life and resulted in the creation of what is now sleep as a skill.
Speaker A:And so the mission and mantra is the fact that turns out sleep is a skill set in our modern society and despite the fact that I had very limited skills when this all happened, that what's available for anyone is the ability to build that muscle with this skill set and that there's so many things we can do to make a difference in this area.
Speaker A:And even if you're listening and you're like, well, I don't have insomnia, this is not for me, don't worry, there's over a hundred sleep wake disorders and there's many issues that people are dealing with with their sleep.
Speaker A:And even if you're just looking to optimize, if you've been sleeping fine, but you want to see, like, could I take things to the next level?
Speaker A:Or I'm testing or tracking on like oura ring loop, et cetera.
Speaker A:And really curious, like, are there certain things maybe that I could be doing that could uplevel?
Speaker A:The answer is yes.
Speaker A:And as a result, today, now with what we built, sleep as a skill.
Speaker A:I have a niche in high stakes poker.
Speaker A:So I work with a lot of high stakes poker players.
Speaker A:You know, their whole schedule and environment, you know, being in casinos that are designed on purpose to confuse the circadian rhythm.
Speaker A:They are an example of a group that even though their circumstances really hinder many aspects of what we know to get great circadian rhythm entrainment and support sleep, yet we can still even support groups like them, like shift workers.
Speaker A:So my point is that there are so many things that are available, even if you've got certain things in your way or certain obstacles.
Speaker A:And so today, with what we've put together with the company, we now have very large database of Oura Ring users.
Speaker A:And so what's really fascinating about that is it gives us a lot of data to see what truly does move the needle for people with their sleep and what maybe is just kind of like a nice idea, and we can use that information to help support others in their journey of really seeing what makes sense to make a difference with their sleep and get those results that they're looking to achieve.
Speaker A:And beyond that, we do have the number two sleep podcast.
Speaker A:We've got online courses, we send out weekly newsletters for over six years, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker A:So I'm saying all that not just to like, rattle off all those things, but simply from a place of.
Speaker A:It is wild that for someone like myself who identified as, like, a bad sleeper, a short sleeper, a night owl, it's in my jeans.
Speaker A:I'll sleep when I'm dead.
Speaker A:All those kinds of ways are relating to sleep.
Speaker A:The fact that this has been built on, you know, kind of foundation of the fact that we can all improve these areas no matter what we think of with our sleep.
Speaker A:You know, kind of innate sleep skills.
Speaker A:That's really my message for people, that there's that ability to take things to the next level.
Speaker C:You ched on so many things.
Speaker C:So I want to wind this back a little bit to where you mentioned sleeping pills, because I think that is sort of the first line of what people get, especially women, because it's like, let me give you some anti depressants and some sleep medications, and that will.
Speaker A:Solve all your problems.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And is that getting to the root, like, when we're not sleeping, Is it because of a deficiency of Ambien?
Speaker A:Is it because of efficiency of Xanax?
Speaker C:Like, and I think, I think sometimes that's misleading.
Speaker C:Is that when you take that Ambien, is that you do feel like you sleep better or like, oh, my God, I can sleep for the first time.
Speaker C:But then, you know, people like us that do measure our sleep with an oura ring or some device, then you.
Speaker C:You can probably speak to that is the quality of your sleep what does that look like on Ambien versus if you have a healthy circadian rhythm?
Speaker A:Yeah, we do see a lot of distinct changes when people are taking prescription sleep aids like that.
Speaker A:And so interesting things, say if we're talking like oura ring or bloop, certain things on the nervous system will often alter.
Speaker A:So our breathing patterns often change, our HRV often changes heart rate, et cetera.
Speaker A:And you know, the trouble that we see with some of those quote unquote solutions is first off knowing that these are approved for short term use and that is really, you know, what it's supposed to be marketed as is short term use.
Speaker A:Unfortunately though, we'll see people come our way that have been on benzos or Z drugs, which is really what those kind of the two buckets that we see for sleep especially that have been on those for decades, 20 plus years, etc.
Speaker A:And they were never designed to be used in that way.
Speaker A:And so if anyone is using any of these, I definitely encourage you.
Speaker A:We've done different podcasts, for instance, with Benzo Information Coalition, which is a nonprofit dedicated to helping educate on some of the perils of like what can happen for people when they start using this long term because things can start really going awry and dependencies can start to grow.
Speaker A:And certainly dependencies, but also like dosing, needing to go up to get similar results.
Speaker A:Oddities as far as the type of sleep that you're getting and behaviors I'm sure people have heard sometimes it's deemed as like comical, funny things that people will do, like on Ambien and they're cooking pancakes at three in the morning or like weird things or ordering things online or whatever.
Speaker A:You know, it's like funny but then it's after a while and this becomes your life or fear, like there's a fear for people of hurting themselves, driving while like asleep, you know, lots of concerns.
Speaker A:And beyond that though, it's very important from an optimization perspective to get the quality of that sleep comes into play because we know that it seems to impact some of the architecture of that sleep and hindering some of our abilities to achieve sufficient rem, especially with REM being problematic because that's almost as our inner therapist, if you will.
Speaker A:And if we are dealing with part of, you know, presumably if we're being put on these drugs, we're dealing with certain things from a psychological perspective that we could use some support like an inner therapist each night and you know, kind of the benefits that REM would provide.
Speaker A:But unfortunately we're not getting that and also hinders some of our aspects of our ability to get into things like deep sleep and just the quality and the look of that night of sleep that you're getting.
Speaker A:So lots of problems there.
Speaker A:And to your point, we see that for women a lot.
Speaker A:And my other concern with that too is sometimes it's important to know that there's over a hundred sleep wake disorders and many people are just, you know, I give talks all the time and I ask people a couple key questions every time.
Speaker A:And I always ask about has anyone had a sleep test?
Speaker A:And usually almost always it's like one or two people and you know, 50, 100, 200 people.
Speaker A:And that's concerning because I would like to see a future where the same way everyone gets tested, you know, blood pressure cuff multiple times throughout their lives.
Speaker A:I would like to see something similar with testing for sleep disorders because not only are many people exhibiting different types of symptoms, and I'm saying this in reference to women too, because women are commonly looked over because we might have different symptoms than men might display.
Speaker A:Like we might not have as like these loud wild snoring kind of examples or wildly overweight or thick neck, et cetera.
Speaker A:You can see we've seen plenty of slender women that are dealing with things like sleep apnea or lesser known upper airway resistance syndrome and other sleep disorders that are just being overlooked.
Speaker A:And women also are particularly vulnerable because as we age, as our hormones change, we can actually become one to one with our likelihood of developing things like sleep apnea, upper air resistance syndrome to that of men.
Speaker A:While we might be a little less likely to get it when we're younger, as we age and go through perimenopause, menopause, and those changes in our hormones, we actually are very akin to men.
Speaker A:So that's often missed.
Speaker A:And then if women are going and complaining, being tired, anxious, you know, run down, etc.
Speaker A:As you pointed to, commonly they are prescribed antidepressants, you know, anti anxiety medications, some sleeping pills.
Speaker A:But if they're dealing with something like upper airway resistance syndrome or sleep apnea, that's a big reason why you would be so tired and anxious and off and waking up throughout the course of the night.
Speaker A:But they might have no idea.
Speaker A:And this is a big problem.
Speaker A:And sadly too, if people are listening and like, well, you know, if I was like a candidate, my doctor would have caught this over the years.
Speaker A:Well, unfortunately the average doctor has around two hours of training in sleep.
Speaker A:Even out of Harvard medicine, we're really dealing with a systemic problem where it might not be.
Speaker A:They're not trying to necessarily be problematic or just trying to, you know, be a problem with the fact that they're stepping over this.
Speaker A:It's the fact that they just don't have the training and don't know what to look for.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, right now we have to really be our own advocates at the moment.
Speaker C:What is the difference between upper airway resistance versus sleep apnea?
Speaker C:And then also you touched on just general sleep disorders.
Speaker C:And I'm assuming you were referring to like doing a sleep study.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:To discover days when you're actually monitored and you are hooked up to all kinds of wires and your brain waves are recorded and everything.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I know there's restless, restless syndrome.
Speaker C:What are the other like typical things that people have?
Speaker C:Do you know what are the most common ones?
Speaker A:Well, a couple things.
Speaker A:So one, in case anyone's listening and thinking like, oh, these tests that this woman's talking about wanted me to do a test, but I don't want to go into in lab and be all hooked up with all these things.
Speaker A:So next I'm not even listening to this or tuning out or something.
Speaker A:Come back.
Speaker A:Because there are all kinds of ways that we can test really easily nowadays, especially for respiratory based disorders like upper air resistance, like snore, like while snoring too and like sleep apnea.
Speaker A:And so the at home tests are really, really great nowadays because you can test using say a ring is one.
Speaker A:And so that's like sleep image ring is a great one.
Speaker A:And you can get multiple nights of data.
Speaker A:They'll also test using HRV as well.
Speaker A:You can use something like that.
Speaker A:You can use a watch pat, which is kind of a classic one that a lot of people use.
Speaker A:And so you are testing at home and then you're getting this information about if you have respiratory based disorders.
Speaker A:It can also kind of cue us in to see are there signs that maybe something else is going on then that we might want to take the next step to test.
Speaker A:We have new tests that are kind of in between sleep labs and in lab there is one called the Oneira test.
Speaker A:And that one you can test at home.
Speaker A:You have to hook up more kind of things on you, more sensors and all the things.
Speaker A:But that one can give us more information about some other sleep disorders that may be beyond respiratory.
Speaker A:Like for instance, restless leg syndrome is a common one, periodic limb movement disorder.
Speaker A:Then we can get into certain things around kind of maladaptive or oddities as it relates to dreaming, certainly insomnia being a sleep disorder, Bruxism you know, so teeth grinding.
Speaker A:There's lots and lots of different types of disorders and we can get more information with those tests.
Speaker A:But then what's the beauty of all this is then we can actually treat this in a way that I think a lot of people don't even realize are available.
Speaker A:So if it's one of the most common things that I see, which are the upper airway resistance syndrome or sleep apnea, what's great is like both of those are really about how we're breathing through our airway.
Speaker A:But there can be different issues based on different individuals on their anatomy.
Speaker A:What is obstructing the airway and does it also involve nasal breathing too?
Speaker A:So obstructions there.
Speaker A:So it does get more nuanced.
Speaker A:But there's lots of cool treatments nowadays.
Speaker A:So I was sharing on social a little bit ago that I got two procedures done myself from an optimization perspective that many people might not even realize are an option.
Speaker A:So one was called vivaire and use radio frequency to expand the nasal passageways.
Speaker A:And what's so great about that is that light debated septum that I had in about 20 minutes, you know, so it's like amazing.
Speaker A:I've had so many people starting to do that.
Speaker A:I wish I could be sponsored by a medical surgery, but I can't.
Speaker A:So just tell people all about this.
Speaker A:My husband's going to be getting this done and what have you.
Speaker A:But that was fascinating because I got that done.
Speaker A:I also got a tongue tie release and tongue ties are another thing that can obstruct your sleep and be another example of kind of a blind spot that a lot of people might have of another thing that could be showing up in your sleep stat results and you might not realize it.
Speaker C:How do you diagnose these if people need either one of these?
Speaker C:Like, like I know that a lot of people not just have deviated septum, but sometimes their turbinates are enlarged and they have.
Speaker C:They are not able to breathe through their nose properly.
Speaker C:I'm not sure this is really cool.
Speaker C:I've never heard of these procedures before.
Speaker C:Are they like a full on push procedure where they put you under and is it a full on surgery or is it something fairly simple?
Speaker C:Can you describe it a little bit more?
Speaker A:Definitely fairly simple.
Speaker A:Actually flew to LA to your state to get this one done and flew in in the morning and flew out right after and so super easy awake the whole time.
Speaker A:So I will be posting this on social at some point.
Speaker A:I got to, you know, get together on making this real.
Speaker A:A couple of reels of it.
Speaker A:But what was really great was like, you know, you're awake the whole time, so they're just numbing locally.
Speaker A:And it was an ent.
Speaker A:So this.
Speaker A:If anyone suspects that maybe they've got something going on for.
Speaker A:Especially with tongue tie, this is the doctor for this.
Speaker A:So this is Dr.
Speaker A:Zaghi.
Speaker A:And so he's like pioneered so much of this.
Speaker A:We had a great podcast with him if people want to learn more.
Speaker A:But a fantastic ENT.
Speaker A:Great pedigree.
Speaker A:Harvard, Stanford, UCLA.
Speaker A:I want to say a part of over almost 100 different studies in the area of airway.
Speaker A:So we're going to see a lot more than you're starting to see it, like on TikTok and Instagram and what have you, where people are really starting to share about even just anatomically, how many of us have gone off kilter in the development of our face shape and our airways.
Speaker A:And there's lots of theories on why, but the end result is that many of us have problems with our ability to breathe properly.
Speaker A:So that doctor is an example of you could go to an ent, but he also created the Breathe Institute.
Speaker A:And the Breathe Institute helps train other doctors and professionals on how to help diagnosis for other people.
Speaker A:Another thing you can do is Google adult.
Speaker A:Well, for talking adults, but also you want to be on the lookout for kids too, because it's going to really mess with kids breathing and their sleep.
Speaker A:But if you Google adult tongue ties, you'll see how to define those.
Speaker A:So grade one, two, three, four.
Speaker A:I was a grade three, almost into four, so more of a pretty serious tongue tie.
Speaker A:So it's tying that tongue down so you're not getting proper tongue posture, which affects your ability to breathe properly.
Speaker A:So everyone should have a proper tongue posture of the tongue really resting at the roof of the mouth and kind of behind your two, you know, kind of front teeth.
Speaker A:It should be like, housed up there.
Speaker A:And that helps to support proper nasal breathing and not mouth breathing.
Speaker A:But many people are dealing with the tongue ties like that, and so that's impacting their ability to breathe throughout the course of the night.
Speaker A:Thankfully, I wasn't.
Speaker A:I was kind of an oddity that I wasn't dealing with snoring.
Speaker A:And I tested for sleep apnea.
Speaker A:But what was really cool was by doing both of those procedures overnight, my respiratory rate went down by about 1.3 breaths per minute on average overnight.
Speaker A:Which is a big deal considering, you know, I've done so many things to tweak my and optimize my sleep.
Speaker A:You don't usually see that dramatic of a change, unless you're talking like, oh, I stopped drinking, or I stuff to like, you know, some really clear thing that really messes with sleep.
Speaker A:So all those things can be supported by a different people.
Speaker A:Either a really knowledgeable ENT that's trained in the area of sleep.
Speaker A:You can look at something called Airway Circle is another group that has kind of a directory of different groups of people that are kind of certified.
Speaker A:The Breathe Institute is another one with a directory.
Speaker A:And so then you can understand both from an ENT perspective, but also a dental perspective.
Speaker A:Many dentists are getting really attuned to this and cutting edge around this training.
Speaker A:So they can often act as gatekeepers on these topics to help.
Speaker A:See, like, oh, you look like you might be a candidate, you might be dealing with sleep apnea.
Speaker A:Let's get you tested.
Speaker A:But certainly they can diagnose you with a tongue tie, lip tie, cheek ties, other things that could be messing with your breathing.
Speaker A:So what I'd like to see is a future where we've got like a whole team of people, where we've got our ents, we've got our sleep centric dentists, we've got our sleep professionals, and then more of an optimized stance.
Speaker A:So how to use and utilize some of the latest in circadian biology and to support your sleep results.
Speaker A:And so that it's not even just like, are you sleeping or are you not sleeping?
Speaker A:We're talking like, have we optimized many aspects of your sleep to get you kind of the best experience of life?
Speaker C:Well, I know that your work combines behavioral science and chronobiology, so let's dive into that a little bit more.
Speaker C:Like how these fields sort of shape the way you understand and improve sleep for people.
Speaker A:Oh, so good.
Speaker A:Chronobiology is really the science of time and how time affects our biology.
Speaker A:And it's really fascinating because, you know, when I was struggling with my sleep, I was doing everything not to do for my sleep.
Speaker A:And, you know, I shared that I work with a lot of high stakes poker players.
Speaker A:Well, part of that is my husband led the largest study ever conducted on poker players.
Speaker A:So we had, you know, hundreds of poker players in our office space back in Manhattan.
Speaker A:So we're kind of living.
Speaker A:And I was a part of some of this from a behavioral change perspective and all kinds of things.
Speaker A:And I say all that because we're really on almost like a poker player schedule.
Speaker A:And so we would go to bed super late.
Speaker A:We would both say, oh, well, you know, we're entrepreneurs, we make our own hours, so what's the big deal?
Speaker A:We get our best work done in the wee hours, in the morning.
Speaker A:Be justified and righteous about all that.
Speaker A:So we were really like shift workers and going to bed late, waking up late, and rinse and repeat, not having any idea what that was doing to our body clock, to say the least.
Speaker A:When we think about circadian rhythm, many people think of sleep, which is true, but it also affects so many other aspects of health.
Speaker A:So our digestion, our body temperature, our hormones, thyroid function, our immune function, our insulin, leptin, ghrelin, I mean, just the list is endless on how many things that are impacted with your body clock.
Speaker A:And it turns out that we have clocks in virtually every cell and organ in our body.
Speaker A:So trillions of clocks that are all looking to stay on time.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, one of the big things that throwing it off is what I'm calling the indoor issue.
Speaker A:Because for millions of years when we lived outside, all of this was kind of handled because we were exposed to the rhythms of nature.
Speaker A:And those really kept these clocks on time because we know that light, dark, one of the most impactful zeitgebers or time givers to these clocks, kind of keeping them tuned.
Speaker A:And then underneath that is, is temperature.
Speaker A:So the temperature in the environment.
Speaker A:So if we're outside, there's no way of getting away from being, you know, warmer by day and markedly cooler by night.
Speaker A:We couldn't just flip on a switch and, you know, make it 72 degrees 24 hours a day like we do now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so we have static lighting and we have static temperature.
Speaker A:Now in the past, we would have always had dramatic high amplitude changes in both of those, and now we don't have those.
Speaker A: or issue, which is that since: Speaker A:And that broke down to in buildings and automobiles, which both of those adulterate the type of environment that you're in.
Speaker A:So you're cut off from those very rhythms that I was mentioning.
Speaker A: gone on, and that was back in: Speaker A:So it's probably way worse because there's been a pandemic and Work From Home Revolution and smartphones and Netflix and all the fun things that have brought us even further inside.
Speaker A:So what's happening there is now we're divorced from Those clear rhythms of nature.
Speaker A:And if light dark is the most impactful of our circadian health, well now we've got a problem because now we're kind of devoid or divorced from those signals or cues that would have kept us on time in the past.
Speaker A: e such a problem that back in: Speaker A:So just last year a scientific consensus was released with referencing 248 circadian scientists pulling from nearly 2,700 peer reviewed publications.
Speaker A:And they're all calling for warning labels on light bulbs when used at night.
Speaker A:And they're doing this not just citing the impacts on sleep, but also obesity, diabetes, heart disease, reproductive disorders, psychiatric disorders, cancers and poor sleep.
Speaker A:So those are all as a result of simply using our basic light bulbs in our environment at night.
Speaker A:So you can just imagine if people are willing to put their whole reputation on the line for something like that, then there's some real evidence to support that this is really messing with us.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, you know, previously for the last 145 years, when Edison created the incandescent light bulb, we were at least with the incandescent light bulb is much more akin to the types of wavelengths that we would have been exposed to in nature.
Speaker A:It's still disruptive, still can, you know, brought about a lot of sleep issues, but it was still a bit more something we're familiar with.
Speaker A:Fortunately, just last year those were also made illegal.
Speaker A:So now we can't buy incandescent light bulbs anymore unless you get them like on the black market or whatever.
Speaker A:And so as a result, what we've been left with is many of us are under LED lights or maybe fluorescence and LED lights have this huge band of blue light that's present there and that's really messing with our melatonin production.
Speaker A:There's certain studies, like one found that just 30 minutes in ordinary room lighting depleted melatonin production by nearly 90% for some of the participants in the particular study.
Speaker A:So it's just an example of how dramatically our melatonin important hormone for sleep, but overall, well being immune function, et cetera, is being obliterated by our environment.
Speaker A:So if we pan out and we know that this light dark piece is really impacting the body's ability to that chronobiology and science of time and how time affects our biology, it's impacting our ability to tell time and stay on time.
Speaker A:So if all of our clocks are all running wild, well, what we're getting is difficulty in our ability to fall asleep with ease, stay asleep and wake up feeling Rested.
Speaker A:So at its core, core, those are some of the big problems.
Speaker A:But it goes deeper than that.
Speaker C:And now tell us, what is social jet lag and how is that affect our sleep and our overall health and how can we minimize the impact?
Speaker A:Okay, so there's a couple of things because I know I've been talking about all kinds of big topics and so people are like, well, I just want to know how to sleep.
Speaker A:Okay, well, a couple of things.
Speaker A:I always say that there's, you know, some anchor habits.
Speaker A:And one of the anchor habits relates to the social jet lag question.
Speaker A:So one anger habit that I want everyone to really start to take to heart and really practice is so boring that it almost gets overlooked and just feels like, oh, come on, give me the supplement, give me the gadget, whatever.
Speaker A:But it is simply to wake up at around the same time every day, seven days a week, waking up at around the same time every day, seven days a week.
Speaker A:And so a lot of people hear that and they're like, oh, I pretty much do that.
Speaker A:And then I look at their stats and they're not doing that.
Speaker A:They are doing that maybe like four days a week, five days a week.
Speaker A:But then the weekends come or whenever they have the ability, and then they sleep in or they have a rough night, and then they say, well, I can't possibly move, you know, take on this day on a couple hours of sleep.
Speaker A:So I got to sleep in, I got to have really long naps, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker A:So they start compensating.
Speaker A:So what we're looking to do is even when you do have a rough night to do what we call the do nothing method.
Speaker A:And you can be really challenging.
Speaker A:I know, but you do nothing in that you still wake up at around the same time.
Speaker A:You don't have tons of coffee to compensate.
Speaker A:You don't have, you know, really long naps, you don't go to bed super early, so you don't compensate in any way that's going to help us stay on time.
Speaker A:What happens for a lot of people is what results in social jet lag.
Speaker A:So they don't get on a plane, but they have the same experience of jet lag that they would have had if they did get on a plane and hopped a bunch of time zones.
Speaker A:So what that looks like is I see this every day.
Speaker A:Like, I literally was on a call earlier today with a client, it's a new client.
Speaker A:And so she was just, you know, we're going over her stats and we would see all of this Jagged up downs and all arounds with that wake up time.
Speaker A:And so it would be very commonly like 2, 3, 4 hours difference at different points.
Speaker A:And you could think, oh well, two hours, not that big of a deal.
Speaker A:It really does mess with a couple things with our sleep wake cycle.
Speaker A:And one of them is the fact that these two kind of hormone poles, if you will, our consistent cortisol pulse in the morning and our consistent melatonin pulse in the evening, and they're kind of like tethered to each other.
Speaker A:And if we start moving things all around, then that can dull or dampen the strength by which we're pulsing those.
Speaker A:And or if the body tries to stay on time, then you might be pulsing that cortisol while you're trying to sleep and then you're waking up throughout the course of night.
Speaker A:You know, those early morning wake ups, those can all be examples of that or difficulty falling asleep because now you're not having a strong melatonin pulse at the right times, so you're struggling and languishing.
Speaker A:Those are all examples of some of the fallout of social jet lag.
Speaker A:But if anyone has traveled long haul, what you often experience is all these kind of weird symptoms with jet lag.
Speaker A:Like you just might feel brain fog or off or anxious or just down or just not a lot of energy.
Speaker A:All of those things that unfortunately I fear that a lot of people, and I was one of those people for many years back in the day, might be thinking that that's just life.
Speaker A:Like that's like how, oh, that's my personality.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm just kind of up and down all around.
Speaker A:When in fact this is like experience of ongoing chronic social jet lag.
Speaker A:So what's there is if we start to bring about that consistency, flatlining of that consistent wake up time seven days a week, a lot of this starts to fall into place.
Speaker A:And it also helps to provide the foundation by which we can layer in.
Speaker A:When are you getting your sunlight viewing behavior?
Speaker A:When are you bringing in your exercise meal timing, which is a huge one for circadian health?
Speaker A:What time are you consistently getting those meals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker C:People that have good habits in place already and like to go to bed on time every night, wake up at the same time, what do you suggest?
Speaker C:Like how do people balance their social lives or to even have a social life, when you go to bed at 9:30 in the evening every night or 9:00 clock or really early, and you get up really early and then all of a sudden your Friends want to go out for dinner and it's scheduled for 7 o' clock and you're not going to be done until like really late eating and you're not used to eating that late.
Speaker C:And then do you just not have a social life or what do you balance it?
Speaker A:It's so good.
Speaker A:Thank you for asking that.
Speaker A:Because we see that really plague people because, for instance, we see once people start sleeping better, one beautiful thing is that now they start to become more committed on this journey of supporting this circadian health and then becomes a bit more of a lifestyle.
Speaker A:And so that's like a really great place to get to.
Speaker A:And so I'm hoping that listeners, if they're not already there, then might be interested in that journey.
Speaker A:But then even beyond that, and once you get there, then you don't also want to be like neurotic and attached to this, you know, kind of way of being so that you're pulling yourself away from our, you know, kind of connections with people.
Speaker A:Because we know from a well being perspective that our connections are huge for our overall well being.
Speaker A:Like for instance, we have a context perspective.
Speaker A:We had a anthropologist on the podcast who focused in on sleep and it was fascinating.
Speaker A:Probably one of my favorite podcasts with David Sampson and he lived Hudson Tribe in Africa and he studied the sleep patterns of the tribes people there.
Speaker A:And what they discovered was that they didn't experience a lot of sleep anxiety like I was speaking to.
Speaker A:They weren't like fixated on their sleep or what have you.
Speaker A:And most of the time they would just have really regular sleep and they would be going to bed consistently, almost making dividends into their sleep capital.
Speaker A:But every now and again they would invest in their social capital.
Speaker A:So this is kind of a term that David pulled that I've used with many clients to almost help have a framing for the times when you know you're going to be investing in your social capital.
Speaker A:You know, I know you and I go to a bunch of these different conferences and stuff.
Speaker A:And so a bunch of my friends there will always say like, oh, okay, we're investing in our social capital because we're eating late, we're going to bed later, we're getting tons of blue light, all the things.
Speaker A:And yet it's like magical and you have great memories and it's so important.
Speaker A:And so you don't want to like not do that one.
Speaker A:Just having that context that every, you know, kind of Pareto's principle.
Speaker A:Like most of the time we're taking care of our sleep, but every now and again we're going to invest in our social capital, we're going to bond with the people that are important to us.
Speaker A:And even if it means like kind of deviating from some of our routines or what have you.
Speaker A:So that's kind of one perspective.
Speaker A:But then I would say a couple other things.
Speaker A:So I mentioned meal timing is really, really a huge impactor of your sleep and a couple of things that we can do with that.
Speaker A:So there's this old saying, eat like a king for breakfast, the queen for lunch and a pulper for dinner.
Speaker A:I'm sure it's like socially and politically incorrect nowadays or something, but it does speak to a volume based perspective for how we could manage our meals from a circadian aligned outlook.
Speaker A:So what that would look like in practicality.
Speaker A:And I've done this, I just went out with friends a little bit ago, there was going to be a later meetup.
Speaker A:So I had a big bulk of my caloric intake on the first half of the day and into lunch.
Speaker A:And then most of my caloric intake is kind of handled.
Speaker A:And then since we're eating later, then I just had a salad, smaller, you know, kind of portion for that dinner.
Speaker A:So you could have like a soup, a salad, a tea of this so that.
Speaker A:So you're having like little bits of stuff.
Speaker A:But you're not giving your body this huge digestion task right before bed, which we also know seems to impact things like lymphatic drainage for example, which has gotten a lot of press.
Speaker A: with the G was discovered in: Speaker A:But if your body is having to digest all that food on the first half of the night and it's kind of splintering its attention to digestion when it could be focusing in on brain cleansing, reparative nature of the body and all the other things that are going on during the first half, then you're going to feel it the next day.
Speaker A:The other thing that I do have people kind of play with too is if you can like a sleep leader in your group.
Speaker A:So how can you kind of help host things that are more circadian aligned?
Speaker A:So lots of brunches and I don't know, happy hours.
Speaker A:So if you're gonna drink, push that alcohol earlier is kind of my suggestion, a boozy brunch or something or having some of those alcohol alternatives.
Speaker A:If you are gonna indulge things like hard ketones are one of the few things that I've seen that don't seem to mess up sleep in the same way.
Speaker A:Or kava as certain options to still have that state change but not obliterate your sleep the next day.
Speaker A:Could you also kind of host and be a source for bringing people and kind of guiding and demonstrating that it's possible to have it all and socialize and do all kinds of fun things, but also keep your sleep intact?
Speaker C:Those are all really good suggestions.
Speaker C:Now, a lot of people, I think the first step for them to improve their sleep is to start tracking their sleep.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Because what you track and monitor is you can something, you have some data and you can work because we are not very good at telling the quality of our sleep without like having some actual measurable data.
Speaker C:Unless you really significantly sleep last and then you're very exhausted the next day.
Speaker C:But for the most part, if it's just 30 minutes less or you had some alcohol or you had coffee late, or you did certain things that were not optimal, you may not really realize that the next day, but you can certainly, if you start tracking it, you can see the stats.
Speaker C:So I know you're a fan of the oura ring.
Speaker C:Is there any other devices, gadgets that you recommend people to start with and then before we run out of time, I also wanted to touch on heart rate variability as a stat that we track and what would be your best suggestions to specifically improve that?
Speaker A:So good.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So yeah, testing or tracking can make a huge difference in our understanding of how our behaviors are impacting our sleep results.
Speaker A:I will say asterisk.
Speaker A:For those really struggling with insomnia, there can be, I understand, a time and a place.
Speaker A:Like when I was really struggling probably wasn't the best time to bring in data and what have you.
Speaker A:But once you've got more of a handle on your sleep results, and it's not across the board because I will say that there's something known as paradoxical insomnia.
Speaker A:And paradoxical insomnia happens commonly when people are.
Speaker A:They think like, oh, I was awake the entire night, but it turns out they're still sleeping.
Speaker A:It's not to say that it's like great quality, but they were still getting some sleep.
Speaker A:And often those trackers can help provide actually a bit of a solace in seeing, oh, wow, I actually did get some sleep.
Speaker A:Maybe I didn't feel like, you know, maybe it's more micro sleep throughout the course of the night, but at least, okay, I can get by on this today and you know, all is well.
Speaker A:So it's nuanced on like when it can always make time, when it can make sense for people to have these and whatnot.
Speaker A: getting these Trackers now in: Speaker A:I am a big fan of Oura Ring.
Speaker A:First for sleep, then whoop is one of my close seconds.
Speaker A:For some people it can make sense instead because it's really great from an activity perspective.
Speaker A:So a lot of my athletes love their whoops and it's, you know, continues to get better and better with their sleep results.
Speaker A:And so those are two of my favorites for consumer grade.
Speaker A:But then there are other ones that people have other benefits for.
Speaker A:So Garmin Biostrap, you know, you can start getting an Apple and Apple's got some exciting developments just recently as far as sleep apnea detection.
Speaker A:Now they can't be diagnostic in nature but it can raise very clear red flags for people.
Speaker A:And also Apple's really great from a heart health perspective.
Speaker A:So for arrhythmias and other kind of heart health concerns, they're quite nuanced there and I'm actually just, I'm waiting for them to like drop some like mic drop.
Speaker A:Amazing sleep tracker.
Speaker A:Like I don't know what they're doing.
Speaker C:Just the Apple watch that you mentioning.
Speaker C:Or is it.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was an Apple watch.
Speaker A:But it's still, I wouldn't suggest starting there for the average person for sleep.
Speaker A:It's just still not as optimized.
Speaker A:There's a lot of EMFs too by the way.
Speaker A:But you know, whereas with Oura Ring it does such a great job of kind of currently providing a one stop shop and also for women of menstruating age doing a great job with helping us to see how our cycle can be impacting our sleep results.
Speaker A:I do anticipate that things are likely to be changing.
Speaker A:There's lots of rumbles of other companies on the horizon, so stay tuned.
Speaker A:That might change.
Speaker A:Also there's things like eight sleep that will also track your sleep more passively in the background with your kind of cooling mattress topper.
Speaker A:So depending on how deep people want to go and then on topics like heart rate variability.
Speaker A:So I think this can be so helpful for people to act as kind of a like a second parent or something or you know, set of parents to watching how you are responding to the world around you and how you're responding to your current stress load both psychologically and physiologically.
Speaker A:And our kind of nervous system Indicators like the heart rate variability markers, heart rate, body temperature and somewhat blood oxygen.
Speaker A:It's not the best metric on a lot of these, but all of those can give us a real sense of like, are we able to recover?
Speaker A:Because heart rate variability is really a metric of recovery.
Speaker A:It's telling us second to second to second, how well are you recovering?
Speaker A:It's most basic.
Speaker A:The higher it is from your baseline traditionally usually is a good sign that you're more recovered.
Speaker A:There are asterisks to this.
Speaker A:Certain times where the body pushes you into a parasympathetic response, like post surgery or certain things or arrhythmias can be another time where higher is not always better.
Speaker A:But for the most part, most people, when we see that go up above your baseline, that can be a good sign.
Speaker A:And, but I'd also encourage people to not snooze, no pun intended, on respiratory rate because respiratory rate is also another really sensitive marker for your nervous system kind of behavior.
Speaker A:And so sometimes we can see that some signs of stressors show up there even before heart rate variability or certainly in tandem with them.
Speaker A:So I would definitely pay attention to those things.
Speaker A:And that can also change if you're sick or you know, just like run down or what have you.
Speaker A:But it makes a lot of sense because if you're looking to impact heart rate variability, you ask like, what are some of those ways we can impact?
Speaker A:We have some of the most evidence to support, just as far as the amount of research, some of the most evidence to support that exercise being one of the top ways to impact heart rate variability and viper to respiratory rate as well.
Speaker A:But then also biofeedback.
Speaker A:And so how we're kind of breathing our stress response.
Speaker A:But all of those, you know, when you bring in exercise that changes how you breathe, biofeedback changes how you breathe.
Speaker A:All of this at its core is like, how are you breathing?
Speaker A:Is a big one.
Speaker A:It's not the only one, but for sure.
Speaker A:But I'm just saying it's one of the clearest, quickest ways to impact hrv.
Speaker A:And that's why it was really interesting when I fixed that deviated septum that the respiratory rate went down, HRV improved.
Speaker A:And you know, so if you are struggling to breathe and it gets even more onus on the sense of urgency to test for some of these sleep disorders because so many of us are impacted in our ability to breathe.
Speaker A:So definitely would want people to check in to ensuring that there's nothing obstructing both airway or nasal wise or Just behavioral wise.
Speaker A:So like mouth breathing.
Speaker A:A lot of people of course have seen the mouth tape thing can be so huge.
Speaker A:I mouth tape every night.
Speaker A:But if you have sleep apnea or barrier resistance syndrome, you try to put mouth tape on, you can make it worse.
Speaker A:You can make it really, really worse.
Speaker A:So you want to make sure that you're not stepping over those things.
Speaker A:Now there's tons more things you can do to improve hrv and there's the very obvious ones like avoiding the big heavy hitters like the alcohol, the thc, the eating late, the you know, kind of overt stressors, sleeping in a hot room, you know, there's a lot of those clear things and also quality of meals that you're having.
Speaker A:So blood sugar stability and processed foods.
Speaker A:And you know, the list goes on and on.
Speaker A:But ultimately that's what's so cool about this journey because when you're tracking this through a sleep tracker, you're really starting to impact your overall health and well being.
Speaker A:So that's kind of like the fun hidden thing that I like to think of with this journey with sleep is that it's kind of a Trojan horse effect because you go in thinking, well, I'm just going to improve my sleep.
Speaker A:But in order to improve your sleep, you've got to improve all these other spider aspects of your health and well being.
Speaker A:So your stress management, are you moving your body, are you working too much, are you socializing?
Speaker A:Are you.
Speaker A:All of these things have to get really handled if you're serious about impacting these things.
Speaker A:That's what's cool is like.
Speaker A:In order to really fundamentally transform your sleep, it really behooves us to really look at our life as a whole.
Speaker C:The work you do, Molly, is very important.
Speaker C:So tell our listeners how can they connect with you, find you, what is, what's the best way to be able to work with you?
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much for saying that.
Speaker A:And right back at you.
Speaker A:And you know, for me it's still insane to me that I do this work because truly it's like I was so terrified when I was struggling with my sleep that I was stuck like this and it was going to be like that forever.
Speaker A:So, you know, I remember trying to find like success stories of people that had struggled with sleep and made it through to the other side.
Speaker A:Really committed to help support people in any way, shape or form and you know, meet them where they're at.
Speaker A:So you go to sleepisaskill.com there's lots of steps you can take no matter what's going on for you.
Speaker A:So one, you can take a sleep assessment and get auto triggered information back right away to help support your sleep.
Speaker A:You can also sign up for a weekly newsletter that's been going for over six years strong every Monday.
Speaker A:We never miss a Monday.
Speaker A:And you can email back and we'll get right back to you too.
Speaker A:Well, it might take a little bit of time, but we will get back to you eventually.
Speaker A:And so there's that.
Speaker A:There's weekly podcasts with tons of sleep experts, so We've interviewed over 300 people in the area of sleep.
Speaker A:So all those are kind of free resources as well as on social media.
Speaker D:Thank you so much for tuning in.
Speaker D:This is Maya.
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